tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-53873162011-07-14T16:26:33.837-05:00Study group discussion on St. Augustine's City of GodDwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comBlogger821100tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1070087395303252712003-11-29T01:29:00.000-05:002003-11-29T01:30:29.466-05:00

so... my last post... was meant to convey that i would be delayed in responding for a few days... a few days turned into a few weeks... and now it has been almost two months. whoops. a big whoops. so... here i am on thanksgiving break- 9 full days of "nothing" and yet... I just now get around to this on, oh, day 8. hmm. i am aware i can make a better effort to work on this, but, on the other

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1065498268798325672003-10-06T22:44:00.000-05:002003-10-06T22:44:28.476-05:00

i know i'm a loser but i'll get to this eventually... just not now...

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1064864376623603452003-09-29T14:30:00.000-05:002003-09-29T14:39:36.346-05:00

This chapter seems (from its title) to set out to inquire weather or not the Platonist's spirits(daemons) require sacrifices and worship due to the one God. Augustine has previously said that the Platonist's idea of supreme good is God, therefore the Platonists are the noblest of all philosophers. Then he notes that some latin terms are inaccurate for discussing God... then finishes by saying

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1064511229978987362003-09-25T12:33:00.000-05:002003-09-25T12:33:49.620-05:00

Sorry, I didn't know we were starting again. Thanks for the e-mail Kristi. Friday nights, Saturdays, and Sundays work best for me. The other days are pretty packed from 6am to 10pm. Doing chapters sounds like a great idea to me. Let's try it and we can adjust from there. I will need to go really slowly just because of time constraints. If I am holding you guys back too much, though, feel

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1064196045130772922003-09-21T20:58:00.000-05:002003-09-21T21:00:45.250-05:00

see title of post. how about this friday doing the first chapter in book 10? (is that where we should pick up?) we'll see if a faster pace will work later on (like, 2 or 3 chapters a week).

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1064191405146327352003-09-21T19:42:00.000-05:002003-09-21T19:43:24.700-05:00

How about one chapter at a time... I sat down the other day and read a chapter pretty quick... I think that would be great, that way we don't wait to have read the whole book to discuss... Whatcha think?

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1062947463588145752003-09-07T10:11:00.000-05:002003-09-07T10:11:03.650-05:00

I hope we hear from MJ, but I think some sort of schedule would help me to keep reading...

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1062546376727551632003-09-02T18:46:00.000-05:002003-09-02T18:46:16.870-05:00

ok kids. lets hit the books. so to speak. i'm up for getting back into city of god, and specifically, to get back into some good discussions with you guys. any conversation or thoughts from the first nine books is game too. definitely would be neat to re-visit some old posts. but let's also keep on going with some new stuff. we never discussed book ten, though i did post a question/thoughts

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1061994303080964792003-08-27T09:25:00.000-05:002003-08-27T09:25:03.183-05:00

Well we're back... some of us at least... I don't know about getting back to it right away... maybe some time to adjust to being a Junior or something would be great.

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1058369119432267982003-07-16T10:25:00.000-05:002003-07-16T10:25:19.396-05:00

Sounds like a plan

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1058366627002352222003-07-16T09:43:00.000-05:002003-07-16T09:43:46.873-05:00

ok all, so, I am about to leave for 4 weeks on my road trip with Neal. we're leaving Sunday I think. Being able to use the internet will be questionable and if at all, it will be unpredictable and sporadic. I also know MJ is on vacation and behind in her reading. And I don't know if Ryan has any desire to discuss City of God with us or try to catch up. And I don't know where Dwight is in

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1058366309126461072003-07-16T09:38:00.000-05:002003-07-16T09:38:29.026-05:00

Ok, so I am almost done book X, and thought I'd go ahead and get us going on some discussion here. In Section 24 Augustine discusses the views of Porphyry and Plotinus vs. us Christians on the Holy Spirit. One thing that struck me was Augustine's suggestion that the Holy Spirit is "holding the middle place" between the Father and the Son. Is this how we are to understand the Holy Spirit? what

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1058365817959357172003-07-16T09:30:00.000-05:002003-07-16T09:30:17.906-05:00

I'll get back to you on this one. I am still thinknig a lot about these things- compassion, emotions, desires, etc. I did come across quite a few neat Scriptures that apply to compassion, which I will share when I have them in front of me... ;)

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1058365705580663422003-07-16T09:28:00.000-05:002003-07-16T09:28:25.530-05:00

Honestly, I don't think I can answer your questions here simply because my knowledge and memory of Socratic philosophy and the Platonic readings we did freshmen year at St. John's are vague. thus, I'm inclined to trust Augustine on his assertions about Socrates but that's because I don't remember it myself... maybe we can look into it. unless someone else has a vivid recollection of Socratic

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1058365576559176072003-07-16T09:26:00.000-05:002003-07-16T09:26:16.510-05:00

I think you are right- Augustine is using the words 'manners' here to designate somethink along the lines of the conduct of men. Augustine suggests Socrates may have wanted to establish a more definitive way to attain the blessed life. Thus, unlike philosophers before him who were concerned solely with 'causes', Socrates "though they[the causes] could only be comprehended by a purified mind."

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1057990450835608322003-07-12T01:14:00.000-05:002003-07-12T01:14:10.836-05:00

Unfortunately, I will not have computer access for the next two weeks. I will keep reading, but I will obviously not be able to post. Please continue on without me, and I will join back in as soon as I get back. Have a good two weeks.

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1057878529507032562003-07-10T18:08:00.000-05:002003-07-10T18:08:49.506-05:00

Hey... did some tinkering with the site... Hope y'all like it... if not I have the old template... I can restore it notice that there is a title block on the create new post page... use that instead of html tagged titles if you will... Thats all for now

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1057799135066865992003-07-09T20:05:00.000-05:002003-07-09T20:05:35.086-05:00

Re: Book 8 - Disuniformity of Words' Meanings Maybe this is another reason that we cannot just tell people about God and Jesus, but we must live for Him. They can put numerous spins/interpretations on our words, but it is harder to question kindness, love, good actions. Even if people do not hear anything we say the way we mean for them to hear it, still they must see what we do and know that

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1057417995567638532003-07-05T10:13:00.000-05:002003-07-05T10:13:15.593-05:00

Re: Compassion I am not sure we are going to simply become like angels in heaven. We are different from angels, and one of those ways may be that we are able to feel compassion. Of course on what will we excersise passion? Maybe on the angels who aren't blessed in the same way as us? Talking about the definition of emotion... how is emotion separated from thoughts and desires? Because one

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1057288767698386452003-07-03T22:19:00.000-05:002003-07-03T22:19:27.760-05:00

Book IX Demons? Angels? Daemons? I am still having trouble finding relevance in City of God. What is it? "A reasoned account of the City of God, that is the earthly Church"? Or is it a broadside against Paganism? For Augustine is the best apology a good offense? How can I apply this to myself, or to others? Why is this a "Great Book"? What are y'all's thoughts on this? I was excited to see

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1057008680467051772003-06-30T16:31:00.000-05:002003-06-30T16:31:41.883-05:00

Book 9 Compassion I was wondering what we thought about section 5. Augustine speaks of the Stoics who claim emotions, like compassion, "invade" us. he also says that "the holy angels feel.... no fellow-feeling with misery while they relieve the miserable... though they have none of our weakness, their acts resemble the actions to which these emotions move us." So is compassion, and other

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1056738521838204582003-06-27T13:28:00.000-05:002003-06-27T13:28:41.903-05:00

Re: Pace of reading I say that we aim for one a week, but give everyone time to respond to each book before moving on... and then move on and if more discussion on previous books continue even with the new book discussions, great!

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1056686599303437962003-06-26T23:03:00.001-05:002003-06-26T23:03:19.283-05:00

Re: Book 8 at last Yeah, nice slow pace is cool with me :) wanna do one a week? or no schedule, just do it when it happens? Any opinions? ...since I started reading 40+ pages of War and Peace every day... Thanks for reminding me, I bought Don Quixote yesterday (pretty good book so far) "As a result, after Jesus' death (and resurrection) His followers only preached and healed and never used

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1056664449344073752003-06-26T16:54:00.000-05:002003-06-26T16:55:11.843-05:00

Prayers to Martyrs? something else I noted at the end of Book 8, section 27. Augustine states that sacrifices are offered at the tombs of martyrs not for the martyr but for God, as "honuors rendered to their memory." This is interesting because I remember Dwight bringing up prayers to saints and what Augustine would think of those. Well, this at least suggests to me that saints would not be

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1056465460834546632003-06-24T09:37:00.000-05:002003-06-24T09:41:00.490-05:00

Book 8 at last Hey all, sorry I'm a bit late, of course, someone else could've posted a question on Book 8. (any volunteers for Book 9??) As of now, I am realiziing it is taking me a whole heck of a lot longer to do the readings since I started reading 40+ pages of War and Peace every day... hmm. I am quite fine however at a nice slow pace... So, Book 8! It is so exciting, don't ya'll think??

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1056128446835713932003-06-20T12:00:00.000-05:002003-06-20T12:14:08.930-05:00

Re: MJ Book 5 on Will (June 7th) "But it seems like evil could come out of God giving us a will..." Without evil can good exist? Imagine light without darkness, we wouldn't know what light was if we weren't ever without it. So I think more good comes from God allowing us to choose than would ever exist if we were all good all the time. Why did God create the world... he doesn't need us, he

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1056061442675385232003-06-19T17:24:00.000-05:002003-06-19T17:24:02.670-05:00

It seems to me that sometimes I can assert I "know" something since I trust God's word... but perhaps that just means it boils down to faith anyway. hmm. anyway, I will not be on tomorrow since the internet here will be down, but, maybe I'll get on saturday or sunday and post a book 8 question, unless someone else wants to beat me to it....

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1055991108536548712003-06-18T21:51:00.000-05:002003-06-18T21:51:48.493-05:00

Re: The Mind (in Book 7) Maybe he says that we cannot know things because religion is based on faith. We believe in God, and He does share the truth with us. We don't reason that it is the truth, however, but we "know" that it is the truth because we believe in God and that he tells the truth. Because this knowledge is based faith (faith in God), we believe rather than know it. We believe so

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1055946635402270212003-06-18T09:30:00.000-05:002003-06-18T09:32:55.656-05:00

Re:Disaray of gods I find this very interesting too. I am definitely learning a lot about the Roman cultuer and religious lives. It's pretty disturbing. This disaray also relates to a previous topic we discussed, about chaos adn order. To quote Augustine who was quoting that guy Varro in 7.17, "I can be more easily led to doubt the things which I have writen in the first book, than to attempt

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1055899657112124162003-06-17T20:27:00.000-05:002003-06-17T20:27:37.000-05:00

hey... I am in Minnesota... I just downloaded the posts y'all have done in the last couple days. I am having trouble connecting, but I think I got it worked out, look for some responses tomorrow... sorry for the delay yeah... whatever pace we set is fine with me... see y'all tomorrow

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1055893400122513132003-06-17T18:43:00.000-05:002003-06-17T18:48:26.460-05:00

Re: Three Divisions I am sorry, I did not mean to leave the community of believers, or any part of the spiritual aspects of Christianity out of natural theology. I definitely think that all aspects of the manifestation of the Spirit (or any form of God) and our actions/relationships because of it are indespensible, awesome, wonderful, and many more things, and always will be. Also, I meant the

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1055807324923028712003-06-16T18:48:00.000-05:002003-06-16T18:49:37.210-05:00

Re: MJ on the Three Divisions I agree with you that religions are related. my guess is that other religions exist because they were trying to understand the one true God but just missed the mark. and since they are based in this world created by God, it makes sense that some of the same "themes" run through differing religions. However, it is necessary to identify that when these ideas are

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1055708817300916822003-06-15T15:26:00.000-05:002003-06-15T15:26:57.320-05:00

The Three Divisions of Theology continued I was wondering if the theory of the three theologies was, though addressing the Roman gods, still based on truth. Even if people make the wrong conclusions, if they start from experiences of this world, then they won't be completely crazy because they are considering God's creations. That does not mean that their theories are correct, but just

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1055641570601222442003-06-14T20:46:00.000-05:002003-06-14T20:46:10.610-05:00

Re: Kristi's Picture of God's Will That is a really cool analogy Kristi. I have been thinking about it kind of like that, but without the picture. The picture really helps make it more cohesive and easier to explain why it would be like that. Thanks! Re: Kristi's Eternal Life It is true that sin is often fun, but I don't think that it would ever be capable of the eternal happiness that

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1055610835315639162003-06-14T12:13:00.000-05:002003-06-14T12:14:59.346-05:00

another thing occurred to me about Book 6. This guy Varro Augustine talks about divides theology into the fabulous (mythical), natural (physical), and civil. why the heck i wonder was theology divided at all in the first place? i mean, do we experience that- different theologies for the "theater, world, city"? Seems a bit absurd to me. Theology, being about the one true God, seems to me that

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1055501437013511042003-06-13T05:50:00.000-05:002003-06-13T05:50:36.980-05:00

Re:Interem Post readings are long and slow but manageable for me. However, since it's Friday and no posts have been made on Book 6 yet (after my thoughts at least) I'd vote to do 7 on Monday and just fall back a bit. We can always carry this study into the fall/school year, that is fine by me. I'd rather take our time and really understand it as much as possible then rush just to fit it in

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1055375308202276032003-06-11T18:48:00.000-05:002003-06-11T18:48:27.996-05:00

Interem Post Hey... I am kinda confused and behind... I am finished with book 6, and will try to catch up on what y'all have posted later tonight. For me at least, the reading hasn't been to much for me, I just have been lazy. So my vote is to do 7 tomorrow and keep up 2 a week. Other's opinions may vary

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1055341582166279802003-06-11T09:26:00.000-05:002003-06-11T09:26:22.293-05:00

Re:Will and Time, Book 5 still Well, not sure how much I can expand my thoughts on God out of time, us locked in time. I brought it up because I wanted to emphasize I don't think the paths of our lives must follow one single path. We do have choices, and if we follow God, the road is indeed straight and narrow. But let me give you an analogy that has come up about 3 times in the past week

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1055292804346688162003-06-10T19:53:00.000-05:002003-06-10T19:53:24.446-05:00

Re: Kristi on Will That is a interesting point, Kristi, about us being inside time and God being outside of time. That seems like it may be very important, but do you have any further thoughts on it? I don't think that I am quite seeing what you are thinking. Chapter 5 On Ambition? Does this help with the ambition discussion that we had earlier? Augustine quotes Sallust: "But at first

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1055102941560310692003-06-08T15:09:00.000-05:002003-06-08T15:09:01.586-05:00

Re: MJ on Will I think Augustine says the power of the will is good- so perhaps, in the ultimate case (sorry, couldn't resist the Newton Principia reference... haha), the will is good. Yet the will involves freedom which is also good... good until the freedom is used for evil. Yet if we did not have the will to choose God and what is good, we would be robots, and any praise or love or devotion

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1054965403154656282003-06-07T00:56:00.000-05:002003-06-08T14:56:05.343-05:00

Re: Book 5 Will Will to me is one of the hardest things to figure out about Christianity. I think I am having a similar problem to you, Kristi. I was thinking, if God gives us a will, then he gives us the ability to choose, right? If that is the case, then we can choose either good or evil. So the will is good, i.e. it is good that we have a will, but that does not necessarily mean that

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1054913636329326552003-06-06T10:33:00.000-05:002003-06-06T10:33:56.336-05:00

Book 5 Will Well. I really enjoyed book 5. I especially found sections 9 and 10 extremely interesting. Did anything stike you guys particularly in those sections? I almost wish however that Augustine would have gone another step further and talked more about 'predestination' and what it means to be 'chosen'- still, the discussion of will and foreknowledge was complex and good. I think I

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1054896323692942362003-06-06T05:45:00.000-05:002003-06-06T05:45:23.740-05:00

Schedule Yes, I have not tackled book 6. I also know Ryan is trying to catch up, so, doing catch up either later on or just not at all sounds better to me. So, just doing 5 today sounds good with me. I'll post some of my thoughts on book 5 later today.

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1054896210731264742003-06-06T05:43:00.000-05:002003-06-06T05:49:05.713-05:00

Re: Dwight's Ambition in Religion I' not sure it is the same thing to think about God in the facets of your life as it would be to create separate gods for those facets. However, I suppose what you mention does make it conceivable how the Romans would do such a thing, i.e. creating a multitude of gods. Creating gods for those facets implies a discontinuity in life- that other gods can' "help

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1054876319656507052003-06-06T00:11:00.000-05:002003-06-06T00:11:59.613-05:00

Here it is, thursday night, and I just finished book 5 this morning... I don't know how y'all are doing, but I am behind. I won't be able to reply the next couple of days... see y'all Sunday! Observations on Augustine following the 5th book From the last chapter of book 5 and the Preface to 6, I think we can rule out the idea that this book could be adressed to Pagans. After saying they are too

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1054701862471846682003-06-03T23:44:00.000-05:002003-06-03T23:44:22.443-05:00

Re: Dwight's Re: Felicity (More) It seemed to me that Augustine was using felicity to mean happiness: "Felicity, however, is certainly more valuable than a kingdom. For no one doubts that a man might easily be found who may fear to be made a king; but no one is found who is unwilling to be happy." (4:23) The question then becomes, however, what is meant by happiness. At first it seems like

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1054586539414930352003-06-02T15:42:00.000-05:002003-06-02T15:42:19.436-05:00

Stuff My brother would like to join the group... I told him to use the comments for a while just to see if y'all wanted to let him join. So read the comments, and if you think he does a good job, we can let him join :-) Sorry I was out of pocket the last couple days, my cousins are graduating, and my grandmother had a micro-stroke (TIA or something like that) in church on Sunday. If you would

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1054585961814517752003-06-02T15:32:00.000-05:002003-06-02T15:33:13.116-05:00

Re: Deception Is there any other source of deception than sin or demons? Even within my life, I am deceieved into some of the ideas you present. Sometimes I find myself weighing the "good" things I have done versus the bad things i have done... and I know that nothing I do is good except for God.

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1054585309467392422003-06-02T15:21:00.000-05:002003-06-02T15:21:49.513-05:00

Re: Felicity (More) What exactly is felicity? It is Good Fortune, right? It cannot be bad, as fortune can. Is there more to it? Also, what we view as good and what IS good are two things. Since "all things work out for good for those who believe in Jesus," every event is good for Christians. (Not necessarily for non-Christians.) So no-matter-what Christians experience "good-fortune." Even when

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1054584778457236022003-06-02T15:12:00.000-05:002003-06-02T15:12:58.480-05:00

Re: Ambition in Religion (More) While I was reading about all of the Gods in books 3 and 4 I couldn't help thinking about saints. I don't know that much about them, but I do know that Luther swore by St. Anne (Patron saint of Miners) that he would become a monk when he was scared by lightning. Aren't there saints of most of the stuff that Augustine was talking about? I wonder what Augustine

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1054584195844979042003-06-02T15:03:00.000-05:002003-06-02T15:03:15.856-05:00

Re: Book 3 Opening Thoughts (Kristi) Thus, what are the differences between us suffering and the Romans suffering (described in this section)? I think Augustine is saying that the gods were worshiped so that the worshipers would not suffer, and to disprove these gods Augustine shows how they don't "do their jobs." Re: Ambition in Religion I do see that as I learn more about God, a greater

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1054550910448716792003-06-02T05:48:00.000-05:002003-06-02T05:48:30.743-05:00

hmm. so it's monday and i thought everyone would have been talking about book 4 by now... or perhaps everyone like me is behind, haha. how's everyone doing out there?? sorry, guys, that i disappeared for 3 days. we can push book 5 back to thursday if we want. but i'll try to start us off with some thoughts on book 4 at the moment.... Two Thoughts from Book 4 Felicity We see this role of '

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1054256947045855832003-05-29T20:09:00.000-05:002003-05-30T09:39:04.430-05:00

Re: Book 3 Opening Thoughts-Ambition I wonder if the Romans wanted more and more gods because their gods did not have the same kind of power that God has. If they had a different god for the sun, the winds, the waves, war, the underworld, etc, etc, no one god would be all-powerful, but each would be powerful in a certain area. Assuming each god had some set amount of power the Romans could

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1054221171321525972003-05-29T10:12:00.000-05:002003-05-29T10:12:51.313-05:00

*random note: make sure posts actually get published on the site after you post them!

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1054221107152353932003-05-29T10:11:00.000-05:002003-05-29T10:11:47.146-05:00

Re:Book 3 Opening Thoughts- Ambition I like what you suggestd MJ. I think in a certain sense we could say Paul was ambitious- though somehow 'zealous' seems a bit more accurate. I guess with ambition I think more about personal gain, achievement. To be a 'right' sort of ambition, I think you are right, it would have to be grounded in a love for Christ. Because we don't do anything for our

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1054006127517243172003-05-26T22:28:00.000-05:002003-05-26T22:28:47.210-05:00

Re: Book 3 Opening Thoughts Augustine, I think, is not trying to say that it was worse before Christ, only that it was just as bad. It is true that the things that happened then still happen now. We, however, do not worship God to avoid all trouble in this life (we do not expect that), but instead to gain virtue, goodness, eternal life, etc. Augustine is slowly going through and

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053979262209354952003-05-26T15:01:00.000-05:002003-05-26T15:03:16.780-05:00

Book 3 Opening Thoughts This section seems to focus on all the disasters and wars that befell the Romans leading up to Christ. Augustine emphasizes the sufferings they underwent in spite of the fact that their gods they worship are there to provide "transitory prosperity." As Christians, we suffer as well. Thus, what are the differences between us suffering and the Romans suffering (described

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053927210937918662003-05-26T00:33:00.000-05:002003-05-26T00:33:31.013-05:00

Re: Kristi's Laws and Harmony That is a good point Kristi: that people do not want chaos, and that that is an argument for God and not the gods. No one wants to be under laws, a ruler, or leadership that is not intelligible. We want rewards and punishments to be dependent on our acts and not on something that seems random to us. We want to be in control of what happens to us. So is

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053790902997464972003-05-24T10:41:00.000-05:002003-05-24T10:41:43.030-05:00

Comments I added comments so that people who aren't members of the group can add their questions (e.g. my mom is reading along, and my grandmama said she would...), which can be followed up on if we decide to... If you want to follow up on a comment just think up a new title, and quote as much of the comment is needed. Also, I like the h4 heading for our posts... keep up the good work.

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053788855645844822003-05-24T10:07:00.000-05:002003-05-24T10:07:35.683-05:00

Re: Laws and Harmony Yeah, I think that Augustine is attacking this religion with reason, because the followers are following absurd gods. What are the differences in the way these gods are absurd, and the way the Lord is "absurd?" One thing that does make sense about God is that he is looking out for our best interest. But we usually say that because Gods will IS Good (itself) so we call things

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053703326395525602003-05-23T10:22:00.000-05:002003-05-23T10:22:07.116-05:00

Laws and Harmony I was thinking when I was reading over what you wrote MJ- first, about the role of laws, second about the harmony you brought up. The book is centered on this City of God... so I was wondering what sort of organization exists within this city? and to what extent does Rome have a similar or contrasting organization or government? Augustine says in 2.21 that "Rome never was a

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053692263611877112003-05-23T07:17:00.000-05:002003-05-23T10:22:24.523-05:00

Re:Book 2 Questions When Augustine says it should have been incumbent on those gods to publish laws for a good life, I think he is appealing to the fact that these gods should set forth a standard of goodness/virtue. It would be incumbent upon them insofar as it was in their nature to do so and not otherwise. I think Augustine would apply this to God, who, being by nature perfect, good, etc.,

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053660221137841892003-05-22T22:23:00.000-05:002003-05-22T22:23:40.426-05:00

comment on "not a comment" Thanks for letting us know. Have fun! I would love to hear about it when you get back.

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053660048074152982003-05-22T22:20:00.000-05:002003-05-22T22:20:47.370-05:00

Book 2 Questions In section 4, Augustine writes: "But none the less was it incumbent on these gods, who were men's guardians, to publish in plain terms the laws of a good life, and not to conceal them from their worshippers." This leaves me with two questions. First, why would anything be incumbent on the gods? Sure, it would be nice, and highly beneficial too, if they would make the laws

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053659975843561642003-05-22T22:19:00.000-05:002003-05-23T11:02:11.390-05:00

not a comment Hey, I won't be around next Monday. I am going to be at One Day with Sir and Johanna. I hope the conversation wont die w/o me ;)

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053656153227100612003-05-22T21:15:00.000-05:002003-05-22T21:59:20.140-05:00

Book 2 Dwight's Thoughts Not sure if the "What is the City of God?" question was answered, but it seems like maybe he is comparing Rome to the City of God. (The Church? Just a city with Christians in it? idduno?) He starts out by comparing Rome to Greece, saying that the Greeks were at least consistant in their sinfulness. Who cares? I guess he is simply using reason to convince the minds of

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053447015585585332003-05-20T11:10:00.000-05:002003-05-22T22:04:56.256-05:00

Re: kristi I think book 2 (or 3 or 4) might clear things up... Re: MJ's Book 1 thoughts Reason is to the mind as love is to the heart (or kidneys :)) The greatest command is to love (God and everyone else) Even though reason says not to. If reason is carried too far (I haven't read Pascal's wager, but have heard some about it) we get what I think Pascal said... Well, it doesn't hurt to believe

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053445949248724532003-05-20T10:52:00.000-05:002003-05-20T10:52:58.290-05:00

ok- but is the City of God the type of earthly city God would want? is it specific to Rome or not? or this/a city as seen through the lives of the Christians? or something eternal and heavenly? still confused on the what aspect of the city of God... can anyone clarify?

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053408040786386392003-05-20T00:20:00.000-05:002003-05-22T22:08:16.003-05:00

Re: Book 1 City of God? It seems like he is setting up the City of God in comparison to Rome. Or maybe within Rome? The Christians reacted this way during the sack, the pagans reacted this way... stuff like that Wow, it is late... One thing though... I have it set up so that it sends the posts to me by email... Are any of you interested in that?

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053401940601160262003-05-19T22:39:00.000-05:002003-05-23T00:21:43.360-05:00

Re: Opening Question This is something that I have been thinking about for a long time, and which can be gotten out of the Bible more than out of Augustine, but Augustine did give good examples, so I thought I'd throw it in. There was some talk a while back, I forget in what group, about how Christians must love one another, but that they were not required to like one another. It seems that

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053392738533887112003-05-19T20:05:00.000-05:002003-05-22T22:14:46.550-05:00

Re: Book 1 Opening Question I read your opening question Dwight even before I finished Book 1. (I confess I still have 9 pages in Book 1 still, but this was a good time to use the internet ;) ) So I kept that theme in my mind as I read- and I noticed Augustine remarking upon this theme, of, "the virtue which makes the life good [that] has its throne in the soul" (1.16). He also emphasized he

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053387672499090902003-05-19T18:41:00.000-05:002003-05-22T22:13:04.970-05:00

Book 1 Thoughts This is a very different style than the Confessions. What do you guys think of the prevalence of reason in this book so far? To what extent can Christianity and Christian acts be explained or accounted for through reason? The cover of my edition has a quote from Aquinas. "The human mind can understand truth only by thinking, as is clear from Augustine." Maybe the mind can

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053366587785649232003-05-19T12:49:00.000-05:002003-05-22T22:13:27.163-05:00

Book 1 Opening Question Sorry this is late... had to get my hair cut. Augustine had a lot of interesting stuff to say. Sins are not acts, but conditions of the heart. This obliterates any "loopholes" that we think we find in God's law. Even if we don't kick someone who is annoying us, the desire to do so is sinfull. But at the same time, no one can force us to sin. Even if the act is commited

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053225612628148222003-05-17T21:40:00.000-05:002003-05-17T21:40:12.590-05:00

hey. My AIM is dwghtknol... I should be on most of the time, since my parents got DSL. I'll have some stuff ready to open up on Monday. I'll try to post it around noon.

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1053178724986481362003-05-17T08:38:00.000-05:002003-05-17T08:38:45.030-05:00

The schedule and plan sound good to me. We can always amend later as we want. I am also up for chatting online. I have AIM and MSN messengers. My AIM screen name is krisde15. Though I don't know what my availability will be, or how often I will be able to use the internet. But if we plan in advance I can always go over to campus to use a computer there if need be. I look forward to blogging

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1052942219860105602003-05-14T14:56:00.000-05:002003-05-14T14:56:59.730-05:00

Hi everyone! Thanks for setting all this up Dwight. I am excited!! I have AIM and also MSN IM, but would also be willing to get another IM if that is what other people have. I don't know what ICQ or IRC are. I really like the idea of a real-time chat in addition to a posting board. It would probably have to be in the evenings or on the weekends if that works for everyone. I think that it

mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02456743228753074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1052920012739617612003-05-14T08:46:00.000-05:002003-05-14T08:47:04.243-05:00

Adding Links If anyone wants to add links to the list, you can edit the template. There are comments in the html that tell you where to add links. If you aren't comfortable doing that (or are lazy :), just tell me the link you want to add and I'll stick it in

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1052861953637395002003-05-13T16:39:00.000-05:002003-05-13T16:39:13.570-05:00

Schedule May: Monday 19th: Book 1 Thursday 22nd: Book 2 Monday 26th: Book 3 Thursday 29th: Book 4 June: Monday 2nd: Book 5 Thursday 5th: Book 6 Monday 9th: Book 7 Thursday 12th: Book 8 Monday 16th: Book 9 Thursday 19th: Book 10 Monday 23rd: Book 11 Thursday 26th: Book 12 Monday 30th: Book 13 July: Thursday 3rd: Book 14 Monday 7th: Book 15 Thursday

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1052851859822160552003-05-13T13:50:00.000-05:002003-05-13T13:50:59.676-05:00

Hey Everybody! This is awesome, I'm really looking foward to it. I told Kristi that I won't be here the week of May 19-23, so I won't be able to post then. (i'll be canoeing in Minnesota) but I will still try to read book 3 and 4. (Assuming I understand the schedule right). I just bought it yesterday, so I should be good. I'm new to "blog" so hopefully this works. Sweetness! -Ryan

Ryanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06660624955885934917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1052848242941500882003-05-13T12:50:00.000-05:002003-05-22T22:14:53.033-05:00

So the plan (so far) is this: Starting next monday (May 19th) we will discuss 2 books a week (one starting on monday, the second on thursday.) Each book is 30-60 pgs. in my edition. As there are 22 books, that gives us 11 weeks. At this rate our last book discussion will be the first thursday in August. The rate is not set in stone, but we should probably try to keep it up. If we cannot all keep

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1052843372893814292003-05-13T11:29:00.000-05:002003-05-13T11:29:32.863-05:00

yay it works!

Kristihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15888549465731873968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5387316.post-1052793881418306602003-05-12T21:44:00.000-05:002003-05-12T21:44:41.346-05:00

Welcome to the City of God study group

Dwighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04122325630115933151noreply@blogger.com